Rusted Sky

The dems never said we can't do it. Dean never said that either. He said the war couldn't be won. And that completely depends on your definition of winning the war, which goes hand in hand with the dems push for Bush to detail what he would consider a success.

It's hard, or impossible, to say if you're winning if you don't have a definition or metrics to define it. The dems over and over pushed Bush to define victory.

He never said we couldn't have a stable independent Iraq. He just said the war couldn't be won, and while you're going to say I'm just parsing words, I'll disagree. What Dean pretty much meant (IMO) was its at the point where what WE do won't help anymore. *WE* can't win the war.

But feel free to disagree. But don't call me a loser it hurts my feelings :-(

Rawb - please.

Stop trying to spin this.

Here's the quoite.

Saying the "idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong," Democratic National Chairman Howard Dean predicted today that the Democratic Party will come together on a proposal to withdraw National Guard and Reserve troops immediately, and all US forces within two years.

You've got three outcomes to a war. Win, Lose, and Stalemate.Viet Nam could have been won, but we played for a stalemate to avoid a conflict with China and Russia. We aren't losing in Iraq - far from it. But now it looks like Dean's trying to force a stalemate.

So, he's not trying for a win. That means he's looking at either a stalemate or a loss. There's no other option. You can't spin it to something else.

Think of the average Iraqi. They're going to see Dean reported in the headlines saying "We can't win this war." They're not going to think "Well, what did he mean by 'win'?" They're going to see Murtha call for a withdrawl. They're not going to parse this out or figure out the nuances involved in American political discourse - they're going to see Americans who have power in the government saying that the US can't win this and calling for a retreat. Labeling it a 'strategic relocation' doesn't change what it actually is.

You're too used to playing with nuances, Rawb. Our political system's riddled with them, and that's a bad thing. I think that's caused a lot of problems for Bush - people keep trying to figure out the subtext of what he's saying, because SURELY he can't be so blunt and forthright as to say what he means - can he? So folks try to figure out what he REALLY means - and miss the entire message.

And you're not a loser, my friend. But you support those who, in my opinion, have a hell of a long way to go before they'd be thought of as winner. Who have little loyalty to their country as a whole, but a lot for their party. Who'd screw over 25+ million people in a heartbeat if it'd get them 10 points in the polls. And they're not worth your loyalty.

In my opinion, of course. I know you think differently - but I'll keep trying to persuade you otherwise. :-)

J.

I completely disagree with the idea that democrats have party loyalty and no national loyalty. Try to convince me all you want. it won't work ;)

Watch them for 30 years, Rawb. You'll see where their loyalties lie. Party and individual power vie for first, country's a distant third.

But like I said, THEY don't see themselves as being unpatriotic. THEY just want the power because they know better than anyone else how things should be done for the good of the country. I've got a problem with that type of eliteism.

Then again, they might not have 30 years left - not unless they really change their direction. I'd like to see that happen - I don't think that an essentially single-party system is in the best interests of the country, but the second party's got to have workable ideas instead of the current stuff they're pushing. And they've got to be HONEST, not hyperbolic. It's all just too easy to find facts on the internet these days, and anything they say WILL be recorded, so they can't go "we can't win in Iraq" and expect to duck out of it later by spinning. Folks don't like being spun.

J.

Ah, yes. Unfortunately that won't stop them! (the rats.)